Lack of American symbols in this film..

[CaptainSarcasm]

Originally Posted by Black Kryptonite

Y'know, that whole "...and the American way" deal has been missing from the comic book for at least the last decade.

ya sure about that?

"
The comic book superhero Superman fights for "truth, justice and the American way." In some modern comic books it has been changed to "truth, justice and hope". However, after the events of "Infinite Crisis," the "Up, Up and Away" story arc firmly re-established Superman's slogan as its original manifestation of "truth, justice and the American way."

"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_way

[Yaso]

Originally Posted by Kidthulu

The men who wrote those words and gave their lives for independence created the idea of a democratic republic. That idea was so radical, they were thought of as traitors by their own countrymen, and you're saying it's no big deal? Let me put it this way: at the time of America's founding, it was the only democratic republic in the world. Now there are over a hundred. You think that means the American ideal is irrelevant. I think it means quite the opposite.

I'm not saying it's not a big deal. But those ideals have been there before the United States.

No one is saying that the U.S. has excusive rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of hap[p]iness" We’re simply saying that the phrase is a part of the American lexicon. It is a representation of a behavioral modality and using it in the right context (i.e. “I’m here to fight for truth, justice, and the American Way”) is patriotic.

That's a completely nonsensical statement. It would be either universal (to each human) or patriotic (to Americans).

[unbreakablesense]

Originally Posted by KalMart

This is what's unfortunate about this film. By clearly trying to placate both sides of the pro- and anti- American sentiment,..

I fail to see how the pro American sentiment was addressed. Please explain.

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by unbreakablesense

I fail to see how the pro American sentiment was addressed. Please explain.

I failed to really see it too... but I also don't see how the anti-American sentiment was addressed. The film should not have felt obligated to push OR denounce American values, and we as viewers shouldn't have been looking for it. It just shouldn't have been an issue. That's my point.

But I do realize that Superman himself will always be an issue...in that some view him as an American symbol first, whereas others view him as a world symbol first. As long asthat debate exists, it'll always be attached to the movie, not matter what you do. Like I said...no-win situation.

[Yaso]

Originally Posted by Kidthulu

The men who wrote those words and gave their lives for independence created the idea of a democratic republic. That idea was so radical, they were thought of as traitors by their own countrymen, and you're saying it's no big deal? Let me put it this way: at the time of America's founding, it was the only democratic republic in the world. Now there are over a hundred. You think that means the American ideal is irrelevant. I think it means quite the opposite.

What about the people who lost their lives in the French Revolution? Or the people who were executed in WW2 by the Nazi Regime for passive or active resistance?

Many people fought for liberty and democracy, I fail to see how it is a patriotic concept.

[unbreakablesense]

Originally Posted by Yaso

That's a completely nonsensical statement. It's either universal (to each human) or patriotic (to Americans).
[/color]

The phrase (defined as

1. A sequence of words intended to have meaning.
2. A characteristic way or mode of expression.
3. A brief, apt, and cogent expression. )

is patriotic but the concept that it refers to is universal.

Again..the CONCEPT IS UNIVERSAL. (How many different ways can I say it? No one is arguing that.) But the way that it is worded is a patriotic motto. The phrase is not universally patriotic. Do you get it yet? The sequence of words is patriotic when used in the appropriate context. The meaning is not.

[unbreakablesense]

Originally Posted by KalMart

This is what's unfortunate about this film. By clearly trying to placate both sides of the pro- and anti- American sentiment,

Originally Posted by unbreakablesense

I fail to see how the pro American sentiment was addressed. Please explain.

Originally Posted by KalMart

I failed to really see it too... but I also don't see how the anti-American sentiment was addressed.

First you say that it's clear then you go on to say that you can't see it.

So, is it clear or not?

[unbreakablesense]

Originally Posted by Yaso

What about the people who lost their lives in the French Revolution? Or the people who were executed in WW2 by the Nazi Regime for passive or active resistance?

Many people fought for liberty and democracy, I fail to see how it is a patriotic concept.

Um....because they were fighting to have/protect those things for their country and country men...

are you purposely being obstinate?

[KalMart]

Originally Posted by unbreakablesense

First you say that it's clear then you go on to say that you can't see it.

So, is it clear or not?

I didn't say 'it', referring to either sentiment, was clear...I said that the intention of the writers/director not to take either side was clear. Please read again.

I refered to it as placating (appeasing, not stirring-up), some may look at it as ignoring...but either way, what they did or didn't do to one side, was even on the other side. Depends on which kind of light the viewer chooses to shine on it, where my stance is that they should leave the light at home.

[Doc Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Yaso

What about the people who lost their lives in the French Revolution? Or the people who were executed in WW2 by the Nazi Regime for passive or active resistance?

What about them? I thought we were talking about American patriotism.

Originally Posted by Yaso

Many people fought for liberty and democracy, I fail to see how it is a patriotic concept.

Patriotism is love of one's home. Americans feel patriotic because the founders of their country spawned a new era of freedom, not just for Americans, but for the world.

[Yaso]

Originally Posted by unbreakablesense

The phrase (defined as

1. A sequence of words intended to have meaning.
2. A characteristic way or mode of expression.
3. A brief, apt, and cogent expression. )

is patriotic but the concept that it refers to is universal.

Again..the CONCEPT IS UNIVERSAL. (How many different ways can I say it? No one is arguing that.) But the way that it is worded is a patriotic motto. The phrase is not universally patriotic. Do you get it yet? The sequence of words is patriotic when used in the appropriate context. The meaning is not.

I understand what you want to say, but how can the INTENT even be patriotic, when you know about the true meaning of the slogan?

Because that's obviously a problem here.

Um....because they were fighting to have/protect those things for their country and country men...

are you purposely being obstinate?

They were fighting against oppression, which just happened to take place in their countries. It's the freedom, the liberty, the democracy that counts, not what country it's going to be established in. It's universal ....

There are people fighting against oppression in other countries, too. What about them?

We are still talking about the "American Way" here, which has been used as a patriotic statement very often and probably still is, but in fact it doesn't concern one country. It concerns all and therefore it's not patriotic.

If you can't understand my words, please don't try to puzzle them around.

[Doc Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Yaso

We are still talking about the "American Way" here, which has been used as a patriotic statement very often and probably still is, but in fact it doesn't concern one country. It concerns all and therefore it's not patriotic.

I think you have definitively answered the question as to whether you're trying to be deliberately obstinate. And the answer is obviously yes.

[Yaso]

No, you're the one who is obstinate. Dan, Mike and Brandon have given many interviews about this topic and they explained why the line isn't in the movie.

And you know that the line has been added to the George Reeve series to give the character a political agenda in times of the Cold War.

Now you're pissed it's not in the movie.

[unbreakablesense]

Originally Posted by Yaso

If you can't understand my words, please don't try to puzzle them around.

Oh I understand your words. It's your conclusions that I find so troubling. (intentional reference )

[Doc Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Yaso

And you know that the line has been added to the George Reeve series to give the character a political agenda in times of the Cold War.

For the sake of argument, I'll allow that the line was added to combat the threat of communism. I do not think that is a political statement. The spread of communism was a real threat. No communist experiment as ever succeeded, in any way. And during the Cold War, the United States was the biggest thing keeping the world tipping into an abyss.

Originally Posted by Yaso

Now you're pissed it's not in the movie.

No. I would not have been annoyed if the phrase "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" was left out of the film entirely. I am annoyed that it was changed to "Truth, Justice, and all that stuff" as if all that stuff is so incendiary or ridiculous that it isn't even worth mentioning in the context of a political discussion.

For Perry to say, "all that stuff" in the context he did is like saying "the N word." Like, he want's to talk about something, but the thing we wants to talk about is so insulting that he can't even bring himself to say it, even if he's saying he disagrees with it.

Superman has always been a patriotic character, because patriotism is the foundation of good citizenship. That is an important part of what Superman has always been about, and I am annoyed at the deliberate corruption of that.